ljefe15
On my way to a better body
Posts: 75
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Post by ljefe15 on Nov 1, 2004 7:34:32 GMT -5
I'm not comparing him to myself (sorry if it seems that way...its not meant to be...). But a person with multiple degrees in exercise and sport science areas (which is what he implied i believe) should have a certain standard of strength. If they dont, all they are qualified to give are the acedemic results of studies, and perhaps their limited lifting experiences. Nobody can be faluted for that, this is after all a free speech forum (within the limits of politeness and basic respect) However to pass off as a "professional" who "when he talks we all should listen" is a big jump from that, if he were louie simmons the great powerlifign coach, Ronnie coleman, Alexi Vasilev (the great russian O-lifter) or somebody of that stature, Of course "when they talk I will listen" - humbly and gladly I may add! bUt if not, then some eveidence is in order to show that the practice matches the theory. Trainign to momentary failure every set (that is what we are discussing right?) is a subject that spans both PL and BB. Because it has implications on Maximal strength output as well as Hypertrophy. why? here is why: Ok in PL we try to lift hte heaviest weight so obviously strenght, speed and power is needed. But why so i n BB? Yeah im a athlete first kind of guy, but most of my clients are not, they train for appearance. I dont condem them because thats alright with me. (i hesitate to call anything that has judges a sport... subject of another thread) and the one things that i make sure they do is to gain maximal strenght! thats right folks maximal strength. When they bulk i want them to gain strenght, when they diet, i want them to maintain that strength. Why? here goes the explanation: Since the main determining factor in hypertrophy (lookin good...) is volume lifted, a stronger person has the potential to lift more volume and thus stimulate hypertrophy. Yup its simple. If A can lift (lets say squat cos i've seen both these cases in real life, both people weighting 85kg) 200kg 1 reps and B can lift 100kg 1 rep... and they both do a "BB" rep range of aobut 8 reps... A could do maybe 150kg while B can do maybe 75kg (just approximations) Who just lifted more volume? no prizes for guessing. Its A! Who stimulated more hypertrophy yup A again... does B have any chance of lifting 150kg 8 times? not a chance at all! hope that explains somthing even to the BB crowd here. Maximal strenght matters! it matters alot! regds Jonathan I agree with what you say, but i don't really get what you're driving yet. The example you give doesn't exactly mean A has done more 'volume'(whatever that means). If at first B's max is 100kg, him doing 75% for 8 reps may lead him to using the same amount of force and experince same amount of tension as A given his starting strength and and musculature(its hypothetical). A having a much better base and background, being able to lift 200, definitely means he can lift more for 8. However, the growth he'll get from doing 150 for 8 may be the same as the growth B gets from using 75 for 8. Get what i mean. Anyway, i think this is off point and doesn't go to show what you said:'Trainign to momentary failure every set (that is what we are discussing right?) is a subject that spans both PL and BB. Because it has implications on Maximal strength output as well as Hypertrophy. why? here is why:"
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Post by captnJ on Nov 1, 2004 7:39:57 GMT -5
I agree with what you say, but i don't really get what you're driving yet. The example you give doesn't exactly mean A has done more 'volume'(whatever that means). If at first B's max is 100kg, him doing 75% for 8 reps may lead him to using the same amount of force and experince same amount of tension as A given his starting strength and and musculature(its hypothetical). A having a much better base and background, being able to lift 200, definitely means he can lift more for 8. However, the growth he'll get from doing 150 for 8 may be the same as the growth B gets from using 75 for 8. Get what i mean. Anyway, i think this is off point and doesn't go to show what you said:'Trainign to momentary failure every set (that is what we are discussing right?) is a subject that spans both PL and BB. Because it has implications on Maximal strength output as well as Hypertrophy. why? here is why:" volume = total wieght lifted = 8x150 rather than 8x75... and i said both guys are the same size 85kg bodyweight Its not off point because: training to failure every set cannot develop power/speed which is integral to strength. nobody is strong if they are slow and connot produce force fast. to train for power/speed you need a fresh CNS. thats why athletes do Plyometrics and power work before squtas and heavy pulls so that the CNS is fresh for the power training. Sorry i did not relate this in the previous post. For the same weight guy (same Bf% etc lets just say they are twins one who has been working on his 1rm strenght more than the other) the 150x8 is certainly more beneficial thatn the 75x8. thanks for your questions. I would have missed out that point.
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ljefe15
On my way to a better body
Posts: 75
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Post by ljefe15 on Nov 1, 2004 8:03:02 GMT -5
Same weight doesn't mean equal musculature, mitochondrial density, fast/slow twitch fibers right? Also, have both guys been training for the same amt of time? If what you're saying is that both guys are EXACTLY the same cept one trains to failure while the other doesn't and trains for strength, then the above would all be different. I mean both guys train differently.
Also, you're writing all these with the assumption that training to failure is bad. With this assumption, you're assuming that with similar training time under their belt but with different styles, B would only develop strength enough for a 75x8. Why is this so? It is only so if there is an assumption that training to failure=slow /negative growth, and little/no increase in strength.
You say the 150x8 is more beneficial.. but only with respect to A. If B can't lift that much to start with, wouldn't the same 75% of his 100kgRM allow for him to reap similar rewards with respect to where he's starting from..?
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Post by captnJ on Nov 1, 2004 8:08:50 GMT -5
Same weight doesn't mean equal musculature, mitochondrial density, fast/slow twitch fibers right? Also, have both guys been training for the same amt of time? If what you're saying is that both guys are EXACTLY the same cept one trains to failure while the other doesn't and trains for strength, then the above would all be different. I mean both guys train differently. Also, you're writing all these with the assumption that training to failure is bad. With this assumption, you're assuming that with similar training time under their belt but with different styles, B would only develop strength enough for a 75x8. Why is this so? It is only so if there is an assumption that training to failure=slow /negative growth, and little/no increase in strength. You say the 150x8 is more beneficial.. but only with respect to A. If B can't lift that much to start with, wouldn't the same 75% of his 100kgRM allow for him to reap similar rewards with respect to where he's starting from..? not where they are starting from but rather where they came from (same place). currently A is getting better benefits from his trainign than B.
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Post by IronVixen on Nov 1, 2004 9:18:26 GMT -5
guniang, who is "they"?
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Guniang
Fitness Assistant
Posts: 423
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Post by Guniang on Nov 1, 2004 11:43:00 GMT -5
those ang moh wif different genetics n structures frm us asians...Its possible we grow the same way as them???
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Post by CUCARACHA on Nov 1, 2004 20:11:44 GMT -5
Ok... read it: Good points: 1. Used compound exercises 2. Focus on maximal (or near there) strenght in fairly low rep ranges (good for more experienced trainees) 3. Short workouts 4. heavy sets Possible weaknesses (reasons why you cant just use it forever 1. Keeps same rep ranges for all weeks (this is impt) 2. May not have enough volume (depending on fibre type of individual) I feel its a good program, but it wont work forever and there seems liek some makreting added in ... hi, are you commenting on MAX-OT with reference to powerlifting or bodybuilding? agreed that there are some marketing strategies added but did you spend enough time reading thru the whole AST webbie and the whole training philosophy of MAX-OT? i bet you didn't. you didn't get the whole idea and purpose of MAX-OT. MAX-OT is not for powerlifting purpose and not created for powerlifters like yourself. and to add on a point, i truly felt that 7-8 out of 10 posts in this forum is powerlifting related. rather than bodybuilding. thats what causes so many disputes here, because bodybuilding and powerlifting are 2 seperate issues.
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Post by captnJ on Nov 1, 2004 20:36:43 GMT -5
hi, are you commenting on MAX-OT with reference to powerlifting or bodybuilding? agreed that there are some marketing strategies added but did you spend enough time reading thru the whole AST webbie and the whole training philosophy of MAX-OT? i bet you didn't. you didn't get the whole idea and purpose of MAX-OT. MAX-OT is not for powerlifting purpose and not created for powerlifters like yourself. and to add on a point, i truly felt that 7-8 out of 10 posts in this forum is powerlifting related. rather than bodybuilding. thats what causes so many disputes here, because bodybuilding and powerlifting are 2 seperate issues. I read the "Ebook" is there more? I feel that my opinion is pretty balanced...regardless of goal.
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Post by jonathan on Nov 1, 2004 21:35:32 GMT -5
jonathan:again, if you are talking bout powerliftin, which i assume you are with all you kettlebells and stuff, i really don't think you and hardcore should carry on with your flaming as i'm pretty sure he's talking bout bbing. Therefore powerlifting and bbing being as immiscible(to a certain extent) as oil and water, you guys should keep your opinions/posts as that Alright alright my focus is different! *Grumbles grumbles*
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Post by jonathan on Nov 1, 2004 21:47:19 GMT -5
those ang moh wif different genetics n structures frm us asians...Its possible we grow the same way as them??? I think you need to develop more self-confidence and understand that you train for your own improvement. If you keep on thinking everyone else is bigger, stronger or better looking, you won't be satisifed no matter how big you grow.
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Post by CUCARACHA on Nov 1, 2004 21:55:38 GMT -5
I read the "Ebook" is there more? I feel that my opinion is pretty balanced...regardless of goal. spend sometime reading the entire purpose, philosophy and ways of performing them at www.ast-ss.com. you would definately get the idea of what actually max-ot is all about and what is it created for. i would have to disagree at the hasty conclusion drawn by you after you read it and not performing it. you goals differ from those of bodybuilding. u seemed to focus much more on powerlifting, strength training and fitness kinda stuffs. which isn't really what bodybuilding is all about. respected you for your knowledge on power and strength training, but not on muscle stimulation and bodybuilding stuffs. no hard feelings.
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Post by captnJ on Nov 1, 2004 22:20:25 GMT -5
spend sometime reading the entire purpose, philosophy and ways of performing them at www.ast-ss.com. you would definately get the idea of what actually max-ot is all about and what is it created for. i would have to disagree at the hasty conclusion drawn by you after you read it and not performing it. you goals differ from those of bodybuilding. u seemed to focus much more on powerlifting, strength training and fitness kinda stuffs. which isn't really what bodybuilding is all about. respected you for your knowledge on power and strength training, but not on muscle stimulation and bodybuilding stuffs. no hard feelings. where is the rest of the stuff? i cant find other stuff ont eh website... give a link pls... BTW i have been on BB stype programs before and i coach ppl who's main goal is asthetic. I would not dare comment on BB routines if thes were not the case. Its just that my passion is in human perfromance rather than appearance. One of the reasons that max-ot has a legion of followers is that most BB use higher rep ranges so Max ot with its lower rep/higher weight plan is a good change for them so it works well. It wont work forever of course...
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Post by CUCARACHA on Nov 1, 2004 22:46:43 GMT -5
where is the rest of the stuff? i cant find other stuff ont eh website... give a link pls... BTW i have been on BB stype programs before and i coach ppl who's main goal is asthetic. I would not dare comment on BB routines if thes were not the case. Its just that my passion is in human perfromance rather than appearance. One of the reasons that max-ot has a legion of followers is that most BB use higher rep ranges so Max ot with its lower rep/higher weight plan is a good change for them so it works well. It wont work forever of course... hi, why are you so certain if you didn't even performed it over a period of time to draw conclusions? fatigue doesn't build muscles overload does. and the meant it by saying continuous overloading of the weight build more muscle mass. the weights should steadily increase in every session(even minimal increase, ie, 1.25kg) to help stimulate new muscle growth.
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Post by lok3 on Nov 1, 2004 22:59:03 GMT -5
hi, why are you so certain if you didn't even performed it over a period of time to draw conclusions? fatigue doesn't build muscles overload does. and the meant it by saying continuous overloading of the weight build more muscle mass. the weights should steadily increase in every session(even minimal increase, ie, 1.25kg) to help stimulate new muscle growth. Like u said overload does ;D more volume=more overload, more weight=more overload, more intensity= more overload overloads refers to lots more then juz adding weight ;DBtw im currently trying out maxot and maby i can gib some conclusion compared to the higher frequency training technique ive used earlier on after 8wks
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Post by captnJ on Nov 1, 2004 23:04:44 GMT -5
hi, why are you so certain if you didn't even performed it over a period of time to draw conclusions? fatigue doesn't build muscles overload does. and the meant it by saying continuous overloading of the weight build more muscle mass. the weights should steadily increase in every session(even minimal increase, ie, 1.25kg) to help stimulate new muscle growth. If "Overload" were that easy (i used to do it when i first started out) i would be squatiing and benchng 600KG by now! right? i been lifting what 10 years... thats 500 weeks...if i increase 1kg a week... you get where im going with this... I have tried overload... it has a point of no additional gains... maybe it still works for somebody who has not reached this point... but i can guarantee that this point occurs... for some sooner, for some later... but rest assured it comes. Its a nice theory but its not that simple... which is why i say you cant stay on Maxot forever regarless of how good it is for some people. (this is true for every program)
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