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Post by lok3 on Nov 1, 2004 1:28:12 GMT -5
The problem of cns breakdown and short term cycles of training to failuire can be easily remedied by a 8week 'on' 1-2 week 'off' cycle. Where the off period is where there is no training to failure but still coninued lifting. I don't see why the put down of training to failure. Who says most guys in the gym take their sets to failure. IMO, its the opposite exactly. Most guys do not nknow what failure is.. at least there are so many intepretations of failure. Many a time you find people in the guym stop short of failure. Its quite rare to see a guy really push it. So, i don't think one should worry bout the majority of people in gyms who supposedly train to failure. Plus, who says one can't train to failure 2 times a week and not suffer from a burntout following priciples above? I'm supporting hardcore here and i absolutely do not think training to failure is a mistake. Depends if its positive failure or past failure. personally as im going by maxot priciples, i aim for positive failure in every set + at least 3min rest to allow for maximal intensity during subsequent sets.Working sets are also low so as to not tax out my body.Whereas on the otherhand, going past failure(fail and spotter helps to squeeze out summore reps) is not only taxing but also useless besides giving u the super pumped up feeling which has no lasting benifits  |
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ljefe15
On my way to a better body
Posts: 75
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Post by ljefe15 on Nov 1, 2004 1:31:28 GMT -5
Depends if its positive failure or past failure. personally as im going by maxot priciples, i aim for positive failure in every set + at least 3min rest to allow for maximal intensity during subsequent sets.Working sets are also low so as to not tax out my body.Whereas on the otherhand, going past failure(fail and spotter helps to squeeze out summore reps) is not only taxing but also useless besides giving u the super pumped up feeling which has no lasting benifits I agree.. it depends. BUT, i'm a proponent of past failure training and the results are nothing to be snuffed at. Not going into detail but for most of the majority anyway, what lok said is true and should be followed. I don't think you'll get a good pump always going past failure! lol. |
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Post by captnJ on Nov 1, 2004 1:31:49 GMT -5
the titles are not going to be specific by saying "train to failure !!" they are stated within the book ok...i am (mostly) in the not-to-failure-every-set camp on this one. It is costly on recovery. We have to consider the alternative. Not traing to failue, not taking so long to recover and then trainign for a 2nd time sooner. I believe that is the way for both hypertrophy (cos of greater total volume- not the only factor but a inportant one) and also for strength - more sets total and more reps total so you can better learn the neural groove. |
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Post by IronVixen on Nov 1, 2004 1:32:36 GMT -5
hardcore, putting the issue of "failure" and its benefit aside for a moment...
I am rather curious , how come you are coming down so hard on Jonathan?
I have seen a whole plethora of REALLY UNARGUABLE stupid posts and comments in this forum, but you do not threaten to ban them or anything like that.
What's going on?
heh nice to have a lady around, isnt it?
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Post by lok3 on Nov 1, 2004 1:36:54 GMT -5
Failure=more of maxot
More x a wk=More of hST
both are proven to work so stop flaming ;D
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Post by captnJ on Nov 1, 2004 1:37:43 GMT -5
Failure=more of maxot More x a wk=More of hST both are proven to work so stop flaming ;D admittedly ive never seen max OT... ill go check it out. |
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Infuse
Ready for a new Body
Posts: 5
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Post by Infuse on Nov 1, 2004 1:40:44 GMT -5
man, this is a useless argument.
I'm a pro for training to failure. Why ?
When you train to failure, what you are doing is exhausting the ATP producing substrates in the active myofibrils. As the substrates effectively run out (i.e. when the ATP-CP system and/or anaerobic glycolysis are no longer able to continue producing ATP), then the CNS will activate progressively smaller and smaller motor units to fire while the substrates in the exhausted myofibrils are replenished. With more motor units called into play, the more microtears that will take place. Microtears are characterized by the breakdown of the non-contractile proteins of the myofibril, such as titin, the proteins of the m line and c stripes etc. This will induce hypertrophy with proper nutrition.
The body was designed like this, the CNS was literally designed to activate progressively smaller motor units to continue contraction. To say that it will "fry" the CNS is an oversimplification of a very complex physiological phenomenon. In fact, the constant activation of smaller motor units will improve CNS efficiency in a process known as motor recruitment. Ergo, training to failure will not damage the CNS, rather it will improve neurophysiological efficiency.
I am an accredited professional in the field of physiology with a specialty in exercise physiology. Accredited means I was given official approval to establish competency in the field of my degrees (yes, multiple degrees). I work with some of the top scientists in the fields of both exercise physiology, but also in motor development. A brilliant professor of mine (professor of sensorimotor skill acquisition) once told me, "I am a doctor. Which means that I am a professional. Which means that when I speak, you listen."
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Post by lok3 on Nov 1, 2004 1:43:42 GMT -5
admittedly ive never seen max OT... ill go check it out. Wan the ebook, i send u ;D |
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Post by captnJ on Nov 1, 2004 1:58:52 GMT -5
admittedly ive never seen max OT... ill go check it out. Ok... read it: Good points: 1. Used compound exercises 2. Focus on maximal (or near there) strenght in fairly low rep ranges (good for more experienced trainees) 3. Short workouts 4. heavy sets Possible weaknesses (reasons why you cant just use it forever 1. Keeps same rep ranges for all weeks (this is impt) 2. May not have enough volume (depending on fibre type of individual) I feel its a good program, but it wont work forever and there seems liek some makreting added in ... |
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Post by captnJ on Nov 1, 2004 2:04:44 GMT -5
man, this is a useless argument. I'm a pro for training to failure. Why ? When you train to failure, what you are doing is exhausting the ATP producing substrates in the active myofibrils. As the substrates effectively run out (i.e. when the ATP-CP system and/or anaerobic glycolysis are no longer able to continue producing ATP), then the CNS will activate progressively smaller and smaller motor units to fire while the substrates in the exhausted myofibrils are replenished. With more motor units called into play, the more microtears that will take place. Microtears are characterized by the breakdown of the non-contractile proteins of the myofibril, such as titin, the proteins of the m line and c stripes etc. This will induce hypertrophy with proper nutrition. The body was designed like this, the CNS was literally designed to activate progressively smaller motor units to continue contraction. To say that it will "fry" the CNS is an oversimplification of a very complex physiological phenomenon. In fact, the constant activation of smaller motor units will improve CNS efficiency in a process known as motor recruitment. Ergo, training to failure will not damage the CNS, rather it will improve neurophysiological efficiency. I am an accredited professional in the field of physiology with a specialty in exercise physiology. Accredited means I was given official approval to establish competency in the field of my degrees (yes, multiple degrees). I work with some of the top scientists in the fields of both exercise physiology, but also in motor development. A brilliant professor of mine (professor of sensorimotor skill acquisition) once told me, "I am a doctor. Which means that I am a professional. Which means that when I speak, you listen." I agree with what you say . But have to ask, how many athletes have you coached? How much can you lift? Acadamia is important but equally important is time under the iron. Both yours and your athletes. I can say that with all my athletes, they dont train to failure often and they are able to practice hard on sport specifit skills and conditioning work on non training days. they do not get sore and the yconstantly get stronger... Yes the CNS works exactly like you explain, and on the last rep where u approach faliue, more and more motor units are fired. The problem is that this is taxing and cannot be done over and over without consequence... And uh... in the sports science field, research is one thing, real world practice is another, put them together and then you get a "professional", I hope you can back it up in both directions. Else the alphabets after, before or whereever else in your title... may not translate over to real life performance. How many years have you been lifting? How much do you squat? powerclean? Bench press? Vertical leap? Borad jump? Deadlift? |
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Post by IronVixen on Nov 1, 2004 2:10:07 GMT -5
hardcore, putting the issue of "failure" and its benefit aside for a moment...
I am rather curious , how come you are coming down so hard on Jonathan?
I have seen a whole plethora of REALLY UNARGUABLE stupid posts and comments in this forum, but you do not threaten to ban them or anything like that.
What's going on?
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Post by lok3 on Nov 1, 2004 2:14:03 GMT -5
Ironvixen are u a autoreply bot ;D u post the same thing twice  |
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Post by Oracle on Nov 1, 2004 2:14:33 GMT -5
please folks, we agree to disagree. everyone has their own opinions, keep the arguments constructive. for the benefits of this discussion, let focus on the topic only. Good points from both sides. i'm learning much...
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Infuse
Ready for a new Body
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Post by Infuse on Nov 1, 2004 2:18:18 GMT -5
I agree with what you say . But have to ask, how many athletes have you coached? How much can you lift? Acadamia is important but equally important is time under the iron. Both yours and your athletes. I can say that with all my athletes, they dont train to failure often and they are able to practice hard on sport specifit skills and conditioning work on non training days. they do not get sore and the yconstantly get stronger... Yes the CNS works exactly like you explain, and on the last rep where u approach faliue, more and more motor units are fired. The problem is that this is taxing and cannot be done over and over without consequence... And uh... in the sports science field, research is one thing, practice is another, I hope you can back it up in both directions. Else the alphabets after, before or whereever else in your title... may not translate over to real life performance. how many have i trained ? man,your doubting me. I have bodybuild every since young, my dad was a pro bodybuilder |
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Post by captnJ on Nov 1, 2004 2:22:34 GMT -5
how many have i trained ? man,your doubting me. I have bodybuild every since young, my dad was a pro bodybuilder Please answer the questions in my modified post. Sorry i was modifying it when you replied. thanks. |
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